Where is SkiDoo's entry level sled? - Page 2 - HCS Snowmobile Forums


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Old 04-20-2017, 10:21 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manitoba Dragon View Post
340 or 440 liquid cooled etec...
Perfect for people with kids or someone just looking for a once and awhile ride.
Etec's also have no smell, unless your fogging them, smell is no longer an excuse.

Fans are dead no argument there...
The next gen trapping sleds will have rads.

The ATV 450 engine would need a completely redesigned crank case to fit in a sled. Definitely cost more then a small etec, not enough of them would be made to make it cheeper.
Also have you ever ridden a quad with the rotax 450? They are supper slow, there is no fun factor at all, thats not how you get people hooked on the sport. You need to give them an adrenalin rush.
The current gen of trapping sleds have radiators. I love my 1200s radiator when crawling around with the kids or so far just the one time hauling logs

A case redesign for the 450 would be 1 or 2 castings and almost no R&D. A 340 twin etec would be a completely new engine. A 300 single or 400/425 single; maybe. (still way more involved than the 450 quad engine case redo) 340 twin; no way. It would be far too much investment to make that happen unless sledding has a HUGE resurgence, and that won't happen unless the sport becomes more affordable.

Those who only want an adrenalin rush would not be interested in this sled, but there are plenty of sleds for those people out there already. Look how many newbs ask about 800s and turbos.

I got hooked on the sport with a 500 fan (my later sleds were more powerful, but I can still have fun with a sled like that). The thing about the 500 fan that almost got me out of the sport before I really got in it was how often I was doing major engine work. It wasn't boredom on the trail topping out at only 70mph.

That POS came with a pile of spare parts, or I would have dumped it for sure after the second major engine failure in the first season (had more than that). Getting people hooked takes dependability more than power from my experiences. The 450 would be dependable. Probably more dependable and definitely cheaper to fix (also important for an entry sled) than a 900 ACE.

Speaking of power; that 500 fan was probably only marginally more powerful than the 450 quad engine, and because a quad needs more low-end than a sled, it could be re-tuned with a new cam for more top end power better suited to a sled's torque requirements. Besides, what would be the point of another 60hp sled engine (like a 340 non PV twin or a 300 PV single)? They've already got one (600 ACE). A 40hp sled engine could have a spot in the line-up.

The last quads I rode were an 80s 185 and 250. They were more than fast enough to have fun with and leave me with lasting injuries.
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Old 04-20-2017, 10:50 PM   #12 (permalink)
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4-stroke has none of the snap and throttle response of a 2-stroke.
Thats what I meant by adrenalin rush.

Small cc quads like 80, 185, and 250's have extremely efficient drive trains, making them feel much faster. (No doubt a 250 would kick my 650 outlander in a race) Put them in something with a differential and they fall flat on there face though.
Same thing would happen with the inefficiency of the snowmobile drivetrain.

R&D wouldn't be that big on a small etec, or even carbed version.
I'm sure they could easily modify a previous model, and scale down the modern emissions systems. Not like the basic principles of them are complicated. The new concepts could easily be applied to an older small engine.

Giving the 450 engine more top end wouldn't be easy, besides a new cam shaft, it would need to reduce vibration to survive at extended high RPM's. It was never designed to pull and hold in that range. New tighter tolerance parts would be required. Remember this is would be a big bore engine in the sled world.



600 ace isn't for a complete new person at all, other then power.
4-stroke in general are just unreasonable for a first time buyer.
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Old 04-21-2017, 12:07 AM   #13 (permalink)
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You've probably got to hit 7000 rpm on your 800 before you make more power than my 1200 at the same engine speed. My old man sled is more likely to dislocate a shoulder launching than your young punk Sled. when you say snap and throttle response, what you really mean is noise and the perceived snap and throttle response you get from it.

Why is a low noise, low stink, gas and go sled not a good sled for a beginner? Is premix even better for a beginner than oil injection? Maybe you missed the part where I mentioned knowing people who were driven away from the sport by the noise and/or stink before they even got into it. I know tons more that remember 90s and 80s (and older) sleds and want nothing to do with sledding thinking they are still like that.

lets face it, nothing really new has come out in sledding for a decade now. Why are people buying new sleds still when there are sleds just as fast and very comparable suspensions for sale much cheaper? for dependability. People want a sled they can count on. I'm not a 20 something with more time than money any more. I don't have time to screw around fixing a sled constantly. I parked that sled and got something I can count on (twice now). I have more fun riding than wrenching by far. I absolutely hate wrenching when I could be riding. That said, money is definitely limited still. I justified paying the exorbitant price for a new sled because I intend to keep it for a decade or more. To do that I am 4-stroke all the way. telling a potential beginner that these sleds are great fun, but you'll probably blow the engine in the next few years is no way to bring people into the sport.

Carbed sleds are on their way out and when they are gone, they will be gone for good. Carbs are expensive precision machines. Now that computers are cheap; FI is cheaper to make, and emissions make it almost mandatory.

Your concepts of engine development are laughable. Maybe they would do half an existing etec, but no way in heck are they ever going to consider a 3/5 scale etec. Even 1/2 an etec would need tons of development; different engine harmonics, no more twin intake/exhaust pulse, whole new airbox, pipe and muffler, new crank case, complete fuel and ignition mapping, etc. a 340 etec would be 98% new. They aren't going to stick etec heads on a 70s engine.

Do you really think that 450 is on the ragged edge of shaking itself apart? There are tons of 4 stroke engines that live long productive lives spinning way beyond where the factory set them. The valve train is what usually limits a 4 stroke. for example; the bike I have been wanting for is the Triumph Rocket 3. The OEM rev limiter is set at 5,800 rpm. The aftermarket takes the stock bottom end beyond 9,000. look at what those lawnmower engine type racer do with theirs. Besides; I am not even talking about revving it higher, just bumping the torque curve up. revving it higher will just get the CVT into less efficient territory. That is why Yami gears down some of their clutches. CVTs don't work well over 9,000
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Old 04-21-2017, 01:04 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I've ridden 4 of those 450's, they struggle to pull 7000 RPM, you'd need at least 8000 to keep the low end and still have a little bit of top end. Pushing the RPM's up there would need basically everything you listed to stay together. Keeping things stock and only doing a cam, would leave you with the same reliability as a 2-stroke.
Very possible, but its just going to drive cost up.

Lawnmower guys that do that, run after market cranks, cams, rods, pistons, valves, just about everything else you can add.


Tell me again how your torque beats HP...


Sleds don't even stink anymore...
Almost all the smell is gone on my dragon compared to the old days, etec is basically a 4-stroke out the pipe.
Noise is just pricks with cans. All about preference there...


How much do you think 2-strokes have really changed?
Basic concepts are all the same, they could easily upload the old 440 specs into a computer, add the updated oil injection and modify the head to accept injection.
Few days on dyno and you'd have an engine.
Bottom end, exhaust and intake (other then a throttle body) remain the same.

I understand R&D cost, but the much cheeper production cost makes up for it, from a cheeper entry level / young rider point of view.

600 etec is easily gets 20000km or 13000miles when cared for, a smaller piston engine would get even more miles...
Combined with the low initial cost and low rebuild cost there isn't really a down side to going 2-stroke.
Yes 4-stoke wont need a rebuild, but its quite the up front investment for someone who my not even be sure they will really enjoy riding.
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Old 04-21-2017, 01:18 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Sorry I'm getting a little fired up here...
This has turning into my study break before finals next week.
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Old 04-21-2017, 11:27 PM   #16 (permalink)
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The dyno sheets I saw for the engine have it run up to 8000 rpm without a drastic fall-off. The peak is quite a bit lower and that is where it is no-doubt clutched from the factory, but it can safely spin up there a ways yet. New cam(s) and valve springs is probably all it would take. Still, If Cat and Yamaha can sell a 9hp sled to the pre-teens, a 38 hp sled would do just fine to the next group up and for those that want a cheap dependable sled, even without the tweaking.

yes I know a clean modern 2 stroke doesn't stink, but you are bringing up 70s engines designs and carbs. not a combination for clean. the 300 etec I mentioned would be clean. But even clean 2 stroke are very dirty when compared to 4 strokes. The quietest 2-stroke is still noisy compared to a runof the mill 4 stroke, and a quiet 4 stroke is whisper quiet.
I'd love for my noisy 4 stroke to be quieter, but it is still quieter than an etec.

You think they even still have that old tooling sitting around still? not likely, or at least not likely in a usable condition.
Manufacturing is all about quantities. You are 1000x better off if you can use an existing part.

Your hillbillied engine might run, but it would not be optimized by a long stretch. It might not last either since those old engines did not last near as long as a 600etec in the first place were not intended to handle the mag side loads of the etec 50v system either.
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